How to fight hatred with curiosity with Daryl Davis (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Anderson:
Hello, there. I'm Chris Anderson. Welcome to The TED Interview. As you may know, this season we're expanding on an idea that seems to offer a rich response to the many troubles we're currently facing. That idea is generosity. And, more specifically, infectious generosity: the ability for goodness to spread virally through our connected culture. 


It's an idea I wrote a book about called Infectious Generosity, and in the spirit of generosity, we're offering free copies of both the eBook and the audiobook to TED Interview listeners. You can go to ted.com/generosity. Fill out the short form there to claim yours. One of the most important forms of generosity our current moment calls for is bridging: the ability to find common ground between our divided identities.

Today's guest knows more than perhaps anyone I know about the power of a difficult conversation to transform individual lives and society more broadly. Daryl Davis is an African American musician from Chicago. He's performed with the likes of Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis, but at the same time, he's been on a decades long mission to learn why there are people in America who hated him just because of the color of his skin.

Well, let's go on that journey with him. 


Without further ado, here is Daryl Davis. Daryl, welcome to The TED interview.
[00:03:04] Daryl Davis:
Thank you, Chris. It's a pleasure being here.
 I appreciate your having me. 


[00:03:08] Chris Anderson:
So, let's start. Just tell us a bit about your upbringing.

[00:03:10] Daryl Davis:
Okay, well, I was a child of parents in the US Foreign Service, so I grew up as an American Embassy kid traveling all over the world, starting at the age of three in 1961.
And, so that was my formative years. My first exposure to school was overseas. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different countries, in different schools and, and in between those grades that I just named, I did schooling back here in my own country, The United States. My classmates overseas were from all over the world. 


Maybe this person sitting here is from Japan. That person there is from Nigeria. Person behind me, Czechoslovakia, France, Germany, Italy, you name it. Anybody that had an embassy where we, the American Embassy, was stationed, all of their kids went to the same school. So, multiculturalism, even though that term did not even exist at the time, was my norm. 


But, every time I'd come back home, you know, in between my dad's assignments and I would go to school here in my own country, I was either in all Black schools or Black and white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated, and we did not have the kind of di-diversity in our country back then that I was having overseas. 


You know? Even though desegregation was passed in this country in `954, four years before I was born, schools did not integrate overnight. In some cases, it took decades. In some cases, we are still dealing with it now in 2024. So, one of the times that I came back, I was in the fourth grade at the age of 10, and I was one of two Black kids in the entire school. 


Several of my male friends had joined the Cub Scouts and invited me to join. This is 1968. I joined the Cub Scouts and, you know, had a pretty good time. We did a parade at, at one point, and I was the only Black participant in this parade. The streets were blocked off. Sidewalks on either side were lined with nothing but white people who were waving and cheering the different organizations, passing through the Scouts, 4-H Club, and whatever else. 


At some point in this parade route, suddenly I was getting hit with, uh, bottles and soda pop cans and small debris from the street by some people off to my right. I remember it being a couple of kids, maybe a year or two older than me who I did not know. And, I guess their parents, 'cause there were a couple of adults who were throwing things. 


And, because I had no precedence for this, I'm thinking, oh, you know these people over here, they don't like the scouts for whatever reason. I didn't realize I was the only scout they didn't like, right, until my, my, my scout leaders came back and covered me with their own bodies and these were, you know, white Scout leaders and quickly escorted me out of the danger. 


And, when I kept asking them, why, what did I do? Why are they doing this? I did not understand. I had no clue. All I knew was nobody else in, in my scout troop was getting this protection but me. So, what had I done to cause these people to do this? Well, my leaders would not answer the question. All they would do is shush me and rush me along, tell me to keep moving, keep moving, everything will be okay.

So, I kept moving and I went home. And, my mother and father who were not in attendance of this parade, they were cleaning me up and putting band-aids on me and asking me, how did you slip and fall down and get all scraped up? I told them what happened, and for the first time, Chris, in my life, at the age of 10, my mother and father sat me down and explained to me what racism was.
At the age of 10, I had never heard the word racism because it did not exist in my sphere. I was around people from all over the world. 


[00:07:23] Chris Anderson:
It's so, so interesting. I, I feel like we're fellow travelers in some way, Daryl 'cause I, I also grew up abroad in an international school. So, this was in India and it was a shock to come back to Pakistan and they're just, I mean, I was white, but just because I'd been born in Pakistan, I still got beat up.

You know, I, I wish that every kid could be brought up with kids from other countries. I just think that would solve so many issues right there. So, look, from this age 10, I guess, it seems like you had this question in your mind, why, why are people like this? 


[00:08:03] Daryl Davis:
Yes. How can you hate me when you don't even know me?

[00:08:07] Chris Anderson:
I mean, were there other bad incidents, Daryl, as you grew up from there? 


[00:08:11] Daryl Davis:
Every time I'd come home there was a bad incident. There's still bad incidents today, but you know, I'm somebody who does not get furious. I get curious.

[00:08:24] Chris Anderson:
Ah.

[00:08:25] Daryl Davis:
And, I want to find out why.
[00:08:26] Chris Anderson:
Ah.

[00:08:26] Daryl Davis:
Because I've seen people get along. I lived in a, in an environment where I got along with everybody, every color, every religion, whatever.

We may not look alike. We may not worship alike or speak the same language, but we played together. We worked together. We had slumber parties together. How come I get treated better halfway around the world than I do in my own country. So, I can bring my experiences home and show people vicariously what the rest of the world is like because, as you may know, most Americans do not travel. In fact, according to the US Census Bureau, most Americans don't even own passports.

[00:09:04] Chris Anderson:
So, you grew up, you became a successful musician, but you carried this curiosity with you. Tell us what you did with that curiosity. 


[00:09:13] Daryl Davis:
Well, you know, I, I have a vast library on these ideologies. 
You know, I have books on white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis in Germany, the neo-Nazis here trying to understand this mentality.

And, when I would ask people, you know, why are people like this? The answers I would get, “Whoa, Daryl, some people are just like that. That's just the way it is.” Well, that is not an answer, at least not one that explains something to me satisfactorily, right? 


So, I decided that I wanted to find out for myself. How can you hate me when you don't even know me? So, who better to ask that question of then someone who would go so far as to join an organization that has well over a hundred year history of practicing hating people who don't believe as they believe and who don't look like them. 


Can you imagine an organization that, that intentionally practices hating people. So, I sought out these people and sat some of them down to ask that question. And, the people that I'm referring to started out being members of the Ku Klux Klan, some neo-Nazis, other white supremacist groups.

[00:10:31] Chris Anderson:
Tell us about your first encounter with someone from the KKK. 


[00:10:36] Daryl Davis:
I was with a country band and I was the only Black person in the band playing in a bar called the Silver Dollar Lounge in a town called Frederick, Maryland. I knew of the place, but I'd never been in there because the place had a reputation of being an all-white establishment. There were no signs saying whites only, you know, no Blacks or whatever. 


But, you knew that. You knew the reputation. And, if you go somewhere where they serve alcohol and you're the wrong color, it's not always a good combination. So, I'd never been in there when now I'm in there, you know, with this band playing, and of course, you know, people looked at me when I came in, but on the first break after our first set, I was walking to go sit down and somebody came up behind me and put their arm around my shoulder. 


And, I don't know anybody in here except for the band. So, I'm looking at this person like, you know, why is this person touching me? And, he says, you know, he, he really enjoyed our music. He'd never seen me before, but this was the first time that he had ever heard a Black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. 


Now, I was not offended, but I was surprised that because this guy was at least a decade and a half older than me, how is it that he did not know the Black origin of Jerry Lee Lewis's piano style? And, I proceeded to explain to him that Jerry Lee got it from the same place I did, from Black Blues and Boogie Woogie piano players, which evolved into rock and roll and rockabilly. 


Well, he didn't believe that Jerry Lee got anything from Black people. Jerry Lee invented this and I assured him, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. He was a good friend of mine. He's told me himself. He did not believe I knew Jerry Lee. He did not believe Jerry Lee got anything from Black people, but I was a novelty to him. 


And, he wanted me to come to his table and let him buy me a drink. Uh, I don't drink alcohol. I, I never did. But, uh, I let him buy me a cranberry juice and he took his glass and he clinked my glass. And, then he says, “You know, this is the first time I ever sat down and had a drink with a Black man.” And, now I'm just totally mystified. 


Like, how can this be? At that point in my life, Chris, I had sat down literally with thousands, even tens of thousands of white people or anybody else, and had a meal, a beverage, a conversation. How is it this man had never done that. And, innocently, I asked him, I said, “Why?” Well, he didn't say anything at first, and then his buddy elbowed him and said, “Tell him. 
Tell him.”

And, I said, “Tell me.” And he says, “I'm a member of the Ku Klux Klan.” I burst out laughing at him because I know how the clan operates. They don't just come up and embrace a, a Black guy put their arm around their shoulder and want to hang out and buy him a drink. It doesn't work that way. So, this guy is joking with me. 


I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, and handed me his Klan membership card. This thing was for real. I stopped laughing. It wasn't funny anymore. Right? But, he was very, you know, cordial to me, very nice. And, he was really very curious about me 'cause he'd never seen a Black man play that kind of music.

Obviously, he didn't get out much either. Right? 'Cause you know, there's Little Richard, there’s Fast Domino that pick the same style of Boogie Woogie, rock and roll.

And, he gave me his number, wanted me to call him whenever I was to return to the Silver Dollar Lounge because he wanted to bring his friends, meaning Klansmen and Klanswomen to see as he put it to me, the Black guy who plays piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. 


I'm not sure he called me the Black guy to his friends, you know? But, nonetheless, I, I'd call him every six weeks and I'd tell, say, “Hey man, you know, we're gonna be down there at the lounge. Come on out.” He'd come. And he'd bring Klansmen and Klanswomen and they would gather around and watch me play and dance to our music. 


[00:14:32] Chris Anderson:
That's so interesting. It seems like your curiosity, I guess, was growing and it led you to initiate a pretty surprising meeting I think.

[00:14:41] Daryl Davis:
You have to understand when you combine my childhood travels with my adulthood travels now, as a professional entertainer and speaker, I've played all 50 states here in this country, I've been in 63 countries on six continents, because I've been exposed to so many cultures, I just treat white supremacists as another culture as I would treat anybody else.

One thing that I've learned in all my travels is this: no matter how far I go from our country, the United States, whether it's right next door to Canada or right next door to Mexico or halfway around the globe, no matter how different anybody I meet may be, they don't share my skin color, my language, how I worship or whatnot, I always conclude that everyone I have met is a human being.

And, as such, every human being on this planet wants these five core values in their lives. Everybody wants to be loved. Everybody wants to be respected. We all want to be heard. We all want to be treated fairly. And, we all want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family. 


And, if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we are unfamiliar or uncomfortable, I will guarantee your navigation of that situation, that culture, that society will be much more smooth and much more positive.

[00:16:25] Chris Anderson:
Let's hear the story of how deeply you got enmeshed. It's really remarkable. 


[00:16:32] Daryl Davis:
I decided to write a book because all the books written on the KKK were written by white authors, You know, and they had the ability to sit down with these people face to face and interview them. No Black author had ever done that, so I decided I would be the first. 


The very first one, he was the leader of the clan here in my state. I did not know him personally. I knew who he was, but I did not know, I never met him. So, I contacted the guy from the Silver Dollar Lounge. I went over and saw him, and I asked him to hook me up, uh, with this clan leader. Well, he did not want to do that because he was afraid that I would get in trouble and he would get in trouble. He said, “Daryl, do not fool with Roger Kelly. Roger Kelly will kill you.”

And, I appreciated that. But, that was the whole reason why I wanted to get together with him. Why would he kill me? Just because I'm Black? Come on! I mean, I have to understand this mentality. 


So, finally he gave me Mr. Kelly's number and address, but he warned me again, do not fool them. You know, he will kill you. And I said, “Okay. I will be cautious.” So, I gave the number to my secretary and asked her to call Mr. Kelly. Now, I could have called Mr. Kelly myself, but I figure if I call him, he might detect in my voice, this is a Black man on the end of this phone. 


I'm not talking to him. Click. And, my whole project would've ended before it ever got started. So, I'm gonna have Mary, my secretary, who is white, call Mr. Kelly and I instructed her specifically, do not tell Roger Kelly that I'm Black. If he asks, don't lie to him, but don't give him reason to ask. I want him to see me face to face, and then he can either accept and come in and do the interview, or he can turn around and walk away and not talk to me whatever he wants to do. 


So, she understood. She called him. He agreed to do the interview. So, long story short, Mary and I got a motel room and Mr. Kelly arrived right on time and there's a knock on the door. Mary got up and opened the door, and in comes Mr. Kelly's bodyguard, who's wearing military camouflage, the Ku Klux Klan emblem on his chest, which is a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross. And, then embroidered on his cap, it said, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and he has a semi-automatic handgun and a holster on his hip. He comes in and sees me and just, you know, freezes. So, Mr. Kelly came around the corner and bumped into the guy, and so now they both got knocked forward and they're stumbling around trying to regain their balance and they're looking at me and looking all over the room. 


And, I'm just sitting there at my table looking at them and I could read their faces. I knew what they were thinking. They're thinking, did the desk clerk give us the wrong room number or is this an ambush? So, I stood up and I displayed my palms to show I had nothing in my hands, and I walked forward right up to Mr. 
Kelly. I put out my right hand. I said, hi, Mr. Kelly, I'm Daryl Davis. He shook my hand. And, then the bodyguard shook my hand. So far so good. I said, “Please, please come on in. Have a seat.” Mr. Kelly sat down on one side and I sat down on the other. I had to show him some ID first. And, we began this interview. 


The bodyguard stood at attention to Mr. Kelly's right, and I had a bag beside me that contained blank cassettes for my cassette recorder and a Bible because the Ku Klux Klan claims to be a Christian organization. And, they claim that the Bible itself preaches racial separation. Now, I've read the Bible. 


I'm a Christian, so I've never seen that in the Bible. I want to be able to reach down into my bag, pull out my Bible and say, here, Mr. Kelly, please show me, chapter and verse where it says, Blacks and whites must be separate. So, I'm all prepared. Right? Well, every time, my cassette would run out of tape, I'd reach down to get a fresh cassette, or Mr. 
Kelly said, “Mr. Davis, the Bible says,” I'd reach down to get my Bible. Every time I reached down like this, the bodyguard reached up like this and put his hand on the butt of his gun. Now, he never pulled it out, but he was ready. A little over an hour into this interview outta nowhere, suddenly there was a noise, a very short, very fast noise, like, a [mimics noise] and we all jumped, and I jumped up outta my chair and I hit the table. All right?

The noise was so fast and so short that my ear could not discern what it was, but I figured that Mr. Kelly had made it. Why did I figure that? Because I didn't make it. And, here I am, a Black man sitting in a room with the head of the KKK and his armed bodyguard. 


I'm not armed. And, here's this man making weird noises. And, I've already been told by one of his people, don't fool with him. He will kill you. So, I got all that going on in my head. So, I had gone into survival mode. I don't have a gun. I see this bodyguard has a gun. He has his hand on his gun and I don't know if Mr. 
Kelly has a gun up under his suit and tie or not. So, when that noise happened, I instantly flew outta my chair and I'm gearing to dive across that table, grabbed the bodyguard, grab Mr. Kelly, and slam them down to the ground and take away the bodyguard's gun. It's his job to protect his boss, but it's my job to protect myself and my secretary. 


So, that was what I was on my way to do. And, when I came up out of that chair and hit that table, I was looking right into Mr. Kelly's eyes from less than a foot away. And, he didn't say a word to me. I didn't say a word to him. But, I knew he could read my eyes. My eyes were questioning him. My eyes were saying, what did you just do? 


And, his eyes were fixated on my eyes. So, his eyes were saying, what did you just do? And, the bodyguard had his hand on his gun looking at both of us. Like, what did either one of you all just do? Well, Mary was sitting to my left. She realized what had happened.

She and I had gotten some soda pop out of the vending machine and put it in the ice bucket, filled it with ice 'cause I wanted to be hospitable when my guests arrived. I had no idea what they were gonna do. You know, would they attack me? Would they walk away? Would they come in and do the interview? I knew what I was gonna do. I was gonna be hospitable. Just like if you came to visit me, I would offer you a cold beverage. Right? 


So, we had the ice bucket, uh, sitting on the dresser with the cans of soda in there. And, what had happened was the ice had begun melting, and the soda cans were…

[00:23:29] Chris Anderson:
Slid.

[00:23:30] Daryl Davis:
….were falling down the ice, right? So, it was making that noise [mimics noise]. You know? And, then it happened again, and, and, you know, and we all started, started laughing. 


But, this was a teaching moment. I won't say it was a learning moment at that point. It was a teaching moment. And, the lesson taught is this: all because some foreign, underscore, circle, highlight the word, foreign entity of which we were ignorant, that being the bucket of ice cans of soda had entered into our little comfort zone via the noise that it made, we all became fearful and accusatory of each other because ignorance breeds fear. We fear those things we don't understand. We didn't know where that noise was coming from.

Right? And, if you do not keep that fear in check, that fear, in turn, will escalate. And, where does it escalate to? It escalates to hatred. 
We hate the things that frighten us, whether it is a snake or a rollercoaster ride or flying or, you know, whatever. If you don't keep that hate in check. That hate in turn will escalate, and that will escalate to the level of destruction.

We want to destroy the things that we hate. But, guess what? They may have been harmless and we were simply ignorant. So, ignorance breeds fear. Fear breeds hatred. Hatred breeds destruction. So, if you wanna solve this problem, forget about the destruction. The destruction is nothing but a byproduct, a symptom of the nucleus, the root cause. Forget about the hate. That, too, is a byproduct. Forget about the fear, another symptom. 


What you want to address is the ignorance. That's where your time, your effort, your money, your resources should go to, eliminating the ignorance. How do you eliminate ignorance? By exposure and education.

[00:25:46] Chris Anderson:
You, you had this meeting and that wasn't the last of it. What happened next?

[00:25:50] Daryl Davis:
Uh, so we laughed about it and we continued with our interview and, and we shook hands at the end and I would call him up and say, “Hey, I'm playing at so-and-so place, you know, in your county, you know, if, if you're not doing anything next Friday night, Saturday night, whatever, come out and see me, you know?”
He'd come. He'd bring his bodyguard, but he'd come. I’d invite him down to my house. He'd come to my house. He sat right here on this couch. You know?

[00:26:15] Chris Anderson:
Is there a sense in which you built almost a kind of friendship?

[00:26:18] Daryl Davis:
Absolutely. 


[00:26:19] Chris Anderson:
To the point where you were willing to accompany him to KKK rallies. 


[00:26:25] Daryl Davis:
Absolutely, because you know, when you're at, at this friendship point, you have found so many more things in common than you have in contrast, that the trivial things, the few, the very few trivial things you have in contrast, such as skin color or whether you go to a church, a synagogue, a mosque, or a temple begin to matter less and less. 


And then they begin, they, they have a, they experience what's called a cognitive dissonance.

They're wondering, how can I hate this person? You know, he, he does the same thing I do. He puts on his pants the same way. He goes to the restroom the same way. He bleeds the same way, you know, and then they come to the point where I cannot hate this person.
And, they leave. So, you know, that eventually happened with Mr. Kelly. Today I own Mr. Kelly's robe and hood, and I've been doing this now for 42 years. I have a ton of Klan robes and hoods and swastika flags and all kinds of stuff.

[00:27:25] Chris Anderson:
These are people who either directly or indirectly, you have persuaded to leave the KKK. 


[00:27:32] Daryl Davis:
You know, I don't like to say that I persuaded them. I influenced them. Yes. When you see my name in the media, it says, oh, Black musician converts x number of white supremacists or KKK members. No, I did not convert anybody. Alright, I am the impetus for over 200 to persuade themselves or convert themselves or come to the conclusion I need to find a better ideological path. 


[00:27:58] Chris Anderson:
And, partly because you were the proof, I would say that at least part of their worldview had to be absurd. They did not see humanity in someone of color. You, kind of, made it impossible for them to continue to believe in full everything that they believed. That was probably a key part of it. No? 


[00:28:17] Daryl Davis:
Exactly. 


You're spot on. See, you've heard the expression, I'm sure, one's perception is one's reality. So, whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality, even if it's not real. It's their reality. You cannot change somebody else's reality. 



Alright. And, if you try to change their reality, you will get pushback because people only know what they know and now you are attacking what I know. 


You know, I'm gonna defend it. If you want their reality to change, what you do is offer them a better perception. And, if they resonate with one of your perceptions, then they will change their own reality because their perception becomes their reality.

[00:29:04] Chris Anderson:
So, this is powerful, and yet what you've done in many ways is at odds at the way a lot of people think today about the biggest moral challenges we face. 


A, a lot of people believe that the stakes have become so high that the other side is so evil. I think people would not be afraid of using that word. So, evil, that we cannot associate with them in any way because we are giving encouragement somehow to evil.

And, so you've been criticized yourself, I think, by some Black Lives Matter activists who feel you've just gone too far here and that you cannot consort with the enemy like that. 


What do you say to them? 


[00:29:52] Daryl Davis:
When I ask might detractors who say, I've gone too far, I say to them, “How many robes have you collected? How many people have you turned around?” You know, we all have believed things at one time or another that were not true. And, then we come to the conclusion, oh, I made a mistake. 


Like, you know, like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, you know, whatever. We all have believed certain things that turned out not to be true. Alright. So, things that can be learned can also be unlearned. I am willing to invest my time. It's, it's no skin off my back. Why should it be any skin off your back if I invest my time, not your time, but my time to sit down with my enemy and have a conversation and eventually walk away with that person's robe and hood, and now that person comes out on stage with me and denounces their former organization and works hard to get other people out of that organization and prevent young people from going down that road. 


What is wrong with that?

[00:30:57] Chris Anderson:
What would you say 
to someone who said that at an individual level, that's powerful, but that you are not really addressing the bigger problem of systemic racism and that your work could be better focused on that? 


[00:31:09] Daryl Davis:
Sure, I am. Okay. You know, there's not one size that fits all, but you know, you talk about systemic racism. You know, this is the racism of the system. 
Well, who is behind the system? Individuals.

You know, if you change the people that are being hired into the system, then you change the systemic effect of the system. You know, everybody has a job. Okay. I, I'll give you an example. You can name for me your favorite movie and you can also tell me how many Oscars it won. 


And, you can also tell me who, who starred in the movie. Maybe you can tell me who the director was, but I'll bet you could not tell me the name of the camera people behind the camera or the person setting up the props or the person in charge of the wardrobe. Okay? But, every one of those people who worked together for that movie contributed to the success of that movie and that movie getting an Oscar. 


So, whether you are on the front line like myself sitting down with the white supremacist, or you are on the back line behind the camera, or you are on the sideline or you are online promoting it like we are right now, everybody has a job to do.

[00:32:19] Chris Anderson:
Right.

[00:32:20] Daryl Davis:
I have my job to do. I'm not knocking how they do their job to address racism. 


But, here's the point. We have been treated poorly for 400 years. Alright, so 400 years later we're still being treated poorly. It's time to think outside the box and what I am doing is effective. 


[00:32:40] Chris Anderson:
Yes.

[00:32:40] Daryl Davis:
Okay?

[00:32:41] Chris Anderson:
So, you're saying there's no one way to solve this and we should celebrate the good and the effectiveness in what each other are, are doing. 


[00:32:51] Daryl Davis:
Yeah.

[00:32:52] Chris Anderson:
So, talk about how others can contribute. I mean, I really view this effort at trying to find common ground as one of the most essential forms of courageous generosity that the moment re-requires of us. How could someone start on that kind of generosity journey towards bridging?

[00:33:14] Daryl Davis:
So, what can we do for those of us who may not want to be on the front line, but we can be on the back line, the sideline online, I call it walking across the cafeteria. 


It can be done physically. It can be done virtually. It's a very simple thing. Have you noticed, like, in metropolitan cities where you know, there's a lot of, you know, different people, colleges, schools, workplaces. You may have, let's say, some people working on the same project together from different races or religions, whatever. They may even be sharing the same cubicle and they get along fine. But, what happens at 12 noon, they go downstairs to the cafeteria. And, Blacks sit with Blacks. Hispanics sit with Hispanics. This group sits with this group. You know, they, they self-segregate. Does that mean that they're racist? No, not necessarily. 


People tend to feel more comfortable around familiarity. Right? So, I would say once or twice a week leave your comfort zone and walk across the cafeteria and sit with somebody else's group. All right? And, now if, if they say, “Whoa, whoa. Oh, you, you can't sit here. Go, go back to where you belong.” Well then yes, there's a problem and it must be addressed. 


But, in most cases you do that, you will have a lot to learn from that person. You will have a lot to teach that person, and in the process you will make a friend and it will become organic. And, the more we do that, the more we become receptive and accepting of other people. We can do it virtually as well by jumping online with somebody that we don't normally, uh, socialize with.

You know, we might be doing business with them in the workplace, but say, “Hey, listen, let's have a zoom call after work. You know, I want to get to know you a little bit about you and your family and share some of my background.”

[00:35:04] Chris Anderson:
How worried are you about the state of the world right now? 
Do you think? Do you think we can find a way forward?

[00:35:08] Daryl Davis:
I, I truly believe we are in the best place ever because a lot of things that we have been in denial about, a lot of things that we've been turning a blind eye about, are now bubbling to the surface. And, that's when you must address them. If you don't see them, you don't hear them, then, you know, you don't know. 


But, when it's in your face, you have to address it. So, now we are forced to address a lot of issues that have been wounding this country for centuries. 


[00:35:41] Chris Anderson:
Well, Daryl, there's many ways that people who want to learn more can do so. Uh, you wrote a remarkable book called Klan, spelled with a k, Klan-destine Relationships, a Black Man's Odyssey in the Ku Klux Klan. 


Uh, there's a PBS documentary about you called Accidental Courtesy, and people can connect with you on social media. What, how can they do that? 


[00:36:04] Daryl Davis:
Absolutely. My website is daryldavis.com, daryldavis.com. Twitter, Instagram @RealDarylDavis.

[00:36:12] Chris Anderson:
@RealDarylDavis.

[00:36:14] Daryl Davis:
And, so, uh, the new book, which is the working title right now, is The Klan Whisperer, it will be out this year. It will have a lot of it, of, of things from, uh, from the old book plus updates and new stories. 


[00:36:27] Chris Anderson:
All right. That's, that's wonderful.

And, Daryl, just at a personal level, tha-thank you for what you've done. I think this message probably matters now more than ever. Um, the division on so many issues is really extreme and I, I feel it is in danger of becoming an existential risk to all of us if we can't figure out how to start to see, at least, something in each other and find some way to learn from each other and to find some, kind of, common ground to start dreaming of, actually, building things together instead of just fighting. I just feel like you have shown the way so powerfully. 


So, thank you, truly, and thank you for sharing in such detail here today.

[00:37:13] Daryl Davis:
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 


[00:37:18] Chris Anderson:
That's it for now. If you'd like to dig deeper into this conversation about the power of generosity, you could read my book, Infectious Generosity, which you don't have to buy because we're able to offer it for free to all listeners to this podcast, thanks to a generous donor. Just head over to ted.com/generosity to grab your eBook or your audiobook. 


Next week, we're speaking with artists and community organizer, Lily Yeh, to explore the infectious power of art to heal and transform communities around the world. The spreading of enchantment. She is amazing.

The TED Interview is part of the Ted Audio Collective, a collection of podcasts dedicated to sparking curiosity and sharing ideas that matter. 


This episode was produced by Jess Shane. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Grace Rubenstein, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Roxanne Hai Lash, Daniella Balarezo. This show is mixed by Sarah Bruguiere.

If you like the show, please leave us a review. It helps others find us and we read every one. So, thanks so much for listening. 
Catch you next time.