The 4 Deadly Sins of Work Culture (Transcript)

Maria:
I found this job opening for a marketing manager. And I thought, oh, that will be really fun. They were looking for someone who could do everything and was very strategic. So I applied, got the interview and they were actually really nice.

Adam Grant:
This is María…or at least that’s what we’re calling her. You know, to protect the innocent. Anyway, María was very excited about this new opportunity. From the outside, the job was everything she wanted.

Maria:
And she called me at the end of the day to offer me the job. So I quit my job. Like two days later.

Adam Grant:
A few weeks later, she started the new job, eager to share her ideas!

Maria:
And as I sat down at my new desk, the designer that was sitting next to me, just like, I tried to find you on LinkedIn to warn you not to take this job. I'm like why? And she told me these people are crazy.

Adam Grant:
Umm, definitely not a good start.

Maria:
I just laughed. It was like, okay, well, let's see how bad it actually is because I also wanted to give it a chance thinking maybe she's just angry. She just doesn't like it. But in this case I should've listened to her.

Adam Grant:
She says the next few weeks were a wild ride.

Maria:
So we had a sales meeting. I was like, okay, let's try and look for a marketing way of getting customers in. And the owner was like, no, how about we just do an energy circle? And I was like, sorry, what? So then they all knew what that meant. So they all stood up and held hands and I'm there just looking around like, what the hell is happening. And then you started shaking, like, okay, shake the bad energy shake for the universe. And then the owner was like, okay, universe, we need you to send us some sales, and I'm just standing there okay. With a folder thick, full of strategies and ideas and campaign ideas, nothing.

Adam Grant:
Was this a company or a cult?

Maria:
I thought it was a bit cultish because at the Christmas party, the owner wrote a song for everyone. With everyone's name on it. And we had to sit there listening to him, sing to us. And by early December, we get a list on my desk and it's just a list of everyone's names in an envelope. And then in, on top of the list, it says, please give whatever you'd like to contribute, to show your appreciation for working here and your appreciation to the owner of the company. I was just so angry and I loudly went, like what? So we have to buy him a present. And I put 50 cents. I suggested buying everyone in the company a Christmas present out of the marketing budget. And they said no, having a job is present enough.

Adam Grant:
The highly paid owner gets a gift, but the hardworking employees don't? CALL POISON CONTROL! We have to go rescue some people from a toxic culture! Organizational culture has big consequences for success and happiness, but we often overlook it because it’s hard to analyze. So what culture clues should you look for before you join an organization– and how do you shape the culture once you’re there?

[THEME MUSIC]

I’m Adam Grant, and this is WorkLife, my podcast with the TED Audio Collective. I’m an organizational psychologist. I study how to make work not suck. In this show I take you inside the minds of fascinating people to help us rethink how we work, lead, and live.

TODAY: Culture at work. How to recognize it from the outside–and strengthen it from the inside.

Thanks to Morgan Stanley for sponsoring this episode.

Jenny Chatman:
When I was in junior high school, one of the things that I used to do was type up surveys that I would give to my parents. Well, actually not just my parents, anyone who came over and I would ask them to fill out a paper and pencil survey. I just loved surveys. I know. Super weird. I would ask all kinds of questions about how happy they were at work and what their work was like. And I just thought that was fascinating.

Adam Grant:
Jenny Chatman is an organizational behavior professor at Berkeley. She was destined to become the Queen of Organizational Culture.

Jenny Chatman:
I like being a queen. I continued to be optimistic about this, that there is, there is a place for everyone and there are organizations and jobs that really fit with some people, but not others.

Adam Grant:
And through her many years of research and countless surveys…Jenny has a clear view of what organizational culture is.

Jenny Chatman:
Culture is the values and behavioral norms. That one sees expressed within an organization. And, and it has to be sort of a systematic pattern of norms and expectations that people have in a particular setting that they might not have in another setting. And one thing that's interesting about norms is there's no rule book to teach them to you. Instead, we learn them through social interaction. They're different from what's written in the corporate handbook. These are observed patterns of behavior and expectations that we pick up from interacting with colleagues within an organization.

Adam Grant:
People often claim their cultures are unique. But when you study thousands of organizations, you can start to see underlying patterns.

It all has to do with how we balance key priorities. Research reveals that there are two fundamental tensions in organizational culture: Results vs. relationships and rules vs. risk. If you ignore one of these values altogether, you end up committing one of my 4 deadly sins of organizational culture: toxicity, mediocracy, bureaucracy, and anarchy.

The first sin of culture is Toxicity. It’s the deadliest sin of them all. New evidence on the Great Resignation shows that toxic culture is the biggest driver of turnover–more than burnout, more than low pay. Toxicity exists when a culture prioritizes results without relationships. Getting things done at the cost of treating people right. The organization tolerates disrespect, abuse, exclusion, unethical decisions, and selfish cutthroat actions. If people don’t get fired for those behaviors– or worse yet, still get promoted– Houston, we have a problem.

At the opposite end of the spectrum is a second sin: mediocracy. Valuing relationships above results. There’s no accountability. People are so worried about getting along that they end up forfeiting good work. In mediocracy, even if you do a terrible job, you can still get ahead as long as people like you. Before long you end up with the Peter Principle, where everyone is promoted to their level of incompetence, and they get stuck there.

The third sin is… Bureaucracy. That happens when a culture is all rules, no risks. New ideas are seen as threats to the status quo. People cling to process and resist creativity and change. They see questioning the way we’ve always done things as blasphemy! There’s red tape everywhere, and if you want to use the bathroom, you have to fill out paperwork.

And our fourth sin is Anarchy. You have risks but no rules. Anyone can do whatever they want, strategy and structure be damned. No one learns from the past or lands on the same page. It’s pure chaos. It’s bad enough when a culture commits one of these sins, but believe it or not, Maria’s jewelry company managed to be guilty of all four sins.

Maria:
So definitely insanely toxic. People were crying there daily, every time I went to the toilet, it was someone crying there. We used to laugh about one of the cubicles was a crying cubicle. So you would never actually go there in case someone needed it for crying.

Adam Grant:
They were a mediocracy too… and not just because they did energy circles instead of marketing. They had no system for getting results.

Maria:
They were a small company that grew into a bigger company and none of the top two bothered to learn how to manage a company. Incompetence the whole way through, but just act confident.

Adam Grant:
They had all sorts of constraints on risk-taking.

Maria:
Very bureaucratic. Like, you couldn't speak directly to the owner because it was it was very about the steps. Remember how high I am, and remember how low you are.

Adam Grant:
And despite the bureaucracy around the chain of command, in other places they didn’t have enough rules… Most of María’s job was anarchy.

Maria:
And turns out I kind of regressed in my career because I ended up not doing anything that I wanted to do. And more like a party planner and universe messenger person. I don't know.

Adam Grant:
I did not know that was a job.

Maria:
I didn't either.

Adam Grant:
Could you have figured any of this out before you took the job?

Maria:
I've been thinking a lot about that because while I was there, I was thinking, how can I make sure that this doesn't happen again? if I had spoken to someone from the team during the interview, I am sure that the general manager would have been there with us. And other than going through LinkedIn and finding people who work there and then messaging them saying, Hey, I have just been offered this position. What do you think about the company. So I'm not sure if that's even something that I would have done…

Adam Grant:
You’ve probably felt that hesitation too. But gathering information about a culture before you agree to join is exactly what Culture Queen Jenny Chatman recommends doing.

Jenny Chatman:
I think that's a great way of helping people be kind of be detectives about the culture that they're interested in…particularly people who are seeking jobs. You want to ask, you know, what, what do people care about here? What are they talking about? You know, what is behavior, you know, focusing on, um, how much agreement is fair. Do people seem to be aligned on these issues? And finally, what are their non-negotiables, what do people get really rewarded for? Or if they violate these norms or behaviors, what do they get really punished for?

Adam Grant:
You want to interview the company. But not during your job interview– wait until you get the offer!

Maria:
I'm definitely doing that for my next job, because if I'm getting into a new company, I want to know exactly what I'm getting into. So next time I will do more of a reverse interview.

Adam Grant:
It’s not about the slogans on the wall or the values on the website. Culture is revealed in the stories people tell.To gather meaningful culture stories, I have a few favorite questions for you to ask current and former employees. I posed them to some former students–and their answers told me a lot about their organizations’ cultures. The first question is: Tell me about something that happens here that wouldn’t elsewhere.

Vivian:
Every year, the class of new hires is tasked with organizing a senior team roast in which they spend 30 minutes live these days over zoom, teasing our senior team for things like the way they write emails, wearing pajamas or in zoom calls, mixing up people's names, you name it. And I think this is something truly unique for a firm in the financial industry where humor isn't often encouraged in the workplace.

Adam Grant:
This is a firm that’s trying to avoid both toxicity and bureaucracy. By making fun of senior people, they signal that executives want human relationships and it’s okay to take risks. Also, it’s pretty rare that people wearing pajamas are into red tape.

Romie:
When the report came about mistreatment of their first year analysts, I got an email from the chairman of our organization. We had worked together on one project previously but didn't know each other very well. I was one of the only analysts he knew. He was horrified by the report and wanted to see how I felt we were doing and make sure I didn't feel anything remotely similar. He responded to my email saying: "I hope/pray that no one at our firm would ever be treated like that. And if even one person felt they were treated badly that person or someone would let us know and we could fix it immediately. If we EVER fail to be people focused, please feel free to let me know, whether it is about you or you are aware of anyone else at the firm. Nothing I care more about!!!”

Adam Grant:
It sounds like the chairman is dedicated to fighting toxicity. But culture isn’t about one leader’s behavior– it’s about how widely shared and intensely held the values are. So I want to know how committed others in power are to curbing mistreatment, and what the consequences are. In healthy cultures, no level of individual excellence justifies undermining people. You're not a high performer if you don't elevate others. Which brings us to a second question: Tell me about a time when people didn’t walk the talk here.

Gabriel:
Our office has returned to in-person because in-person interactions are “highly valued”, according to the President of the firm, but the 3rd most senior person at the firm is spending the entire winter in a ski town in Europe.

Adam Grant:
This is a red flag. Research suggests that the worst stories about a culture are about senior leaders violating their own principles. They claim in-person relationships are valued, but apparently one of the top people is exempt from that value. Hypocrisy alert! You can also see signs of hypocrisy versus integrity by asking a third question: tell me a story about who gets hired, promoted, and fired! If you’re a detective, these stories are full of clues about what’s really valued.

Lauren:
An MD shared how he made MD in 6 years as opposed to the normal 12. He told us how he works from 4:30 am until 10 pm and is always available. He doesn't expect it from anyone else, but he is always grinding. Considering our firm prides itself on valuing mental health, it's a bit demoralizing to hear that the way to advance quickly is to abandon those "values"

Adam Grant:
Here’s another warning signal. The company claims to value well-being, but do they really mean it? If you want to get promoted early, good luck not working 17-hour days. Collecting stories can help you understand a culture from the outside, and identify toxicity, mediocracy, bureaucracy, and anarchy before you join. But what if you are already inside– how do you build and maintain a strong culture? More on that, after the break.

[AD BREAK]

Adam Grant:
The first person who shapes the culture of an organization is the founder.

Annie Kao:
Our founder, Barclay Simpson had his nine principles of doing business. it's something that we refer to all the time. And one of them, is everybody matters.

Adam Grant:
Meet Annie Kao. She’s the VP of engineering at Simpson Manufacturing–they make anchors and fasteners for building foundations and decks.

Annie Kao:
We are a manufacturer and engineering company of building connections. that help people build and design safer, stronger structures.

Adam Grant:
And Simpson has been doing that for a long time!

Annie Kao:
We just celebrated our 65th birthday.

Adam Grant:
I thought it was really intriguing that you said we celebrated our 65th birthday. A lot of people when they talk about their company, they wouldn't know what their company’s birthday was; what's behind that?

Annie Kao:
I didn't even pick up on that, but I think for me, like the people are Simpson. I feel like I am a very active owner of who Simpson is and what Simpson is. And so, the successes that we have as a company, both on the financial side, on the products that we're able to release, like I have, personal pride associated with that because I just, I know the people and the work that it took to deliver it.

Adam Grant:
That identification with the company, that pride of ownership is a sign that Simpson has an unusually strong culture.

Annie Kao:
It's very personal because I think that what the company does is a clear reflection on, you know, who I am, as, you know, as, as a person, as an engineer, you know, as a parent.

Adam Grant:
Strong culture is one of Jenny Chatman’s specialties as a researcher. You can tell how strong a culture is by paying close attention to what she calls crystallization and intensity.

Jenny Chatman:
Then there's a question about how much people agree about the culture. That's the crystallization piece. Does everyone in the organization agree that innovation is important or is there fragmentation where our engineers want to be on the cutting edge of things, but our marketing folks want to pull back and just provide what customers are asking for. And there's the question of intensity, which is what are the things that we're. Those are absolute non-negotiables for us in the organization.

Adam Grant:
Simpson doesn’t just have a strong culture. Jenny has observed it up close as an unusually healthy one.

Jenny Chatman:
So full disclosure I'm on the board of Simpson manufacturing. Even before consultants were billing hours for cultural transformation, Barc was building a strong culture. And, he had a number of principles. One was that he really supported his people within the organization and expected to do most of their promotions from within the company. So there was a real investment in developing people.

Adam Grant:
An investment that often took people by surprise– including Annie.

Annie Kao:
Barckley Simpson used to attend all of the orientation classes that we held at our corporate office So everyone who starts at Simpson attends this week-long orientation at our home office in Pleasanton and bark would attend all of those. And he would have 30 minutes. He'd go around, ask everyone's name,ask about their families and, and talk a little bit about the history. And he would just kinda sit down and be one of the, you know, conference chairs along with us And then I think of other leaders that have guided our company. And just the common factor is how. Kind of openly caring they were they made time for employees. And it's, it's something that I have really tried to do just within my department with engineering is like, I need to be that, for the employees And so just making sure that, you know, I'm owning that and also expecting that of my team because that's the kind of culture that we want and we have to keep it alive. and just not assume that someone else is doing it. It’s often said that culture eats strategy for breakfast. But the reality is that a strong culture can serve your strategy.

Jenny Chatman:
Yeah, I do think there is something to the motto that if your culture is not aligned with your strategy, you know, good luck. It's probably not going to be executed very well, or if at all. But I also think that strategy is what gives organization. It's, it's, you know, it's purpose. Without a strategic objective, the question is sort of why organize or why be an organization you're coming together for a purpose you're trying to accomplish something together. The culture should be the kind of engine that allows you to execute on that strategy more or less effectively.

Adam Grant:
So if you want to build a strong culture, you need to identify the core values that you’re trying to crystallize. But crystallization alone is not enough. You’ve probably come across a workplace where everyone agrees on the values, but no one really upholds them.

Jenny Chatman:
Think of your US postal service where, you know, who knew that their motto was customers first, right? Like who knew? They got the coffee mugs, they have the banners, but is anyone willing to sort of stay past 5:00 PM to ensure that everybody on the line is served? Probably not. In fact, it's the most common case in organizations to have high crystallization and low intensity because typically leaders are asking people to agree with pretty good stuff. Like quality or customers. Sure. I like customers, you know, the real question though Is, Are people punished for a failure to uphold the norms and are they willing to sanction one another?

Adam Grant:
That’s where intensity comes in.

Jenny Chatman:
There was this case at Nordstrom of course, it is known as a strong culture organization. an experience I had where a shoe salesperson was helpful, but not overly helpful.

And another salesperson came over, which I happened to overhear because you know, eavesdropping is tax deductible for me. Right. I happened to overhear this, this conversation between the two and the second sales person was actually admonishing the first one for not going above and beyond in helping me. So that's the sign of real intensity. Are people willing to take an interpersonal risk in order to uphold those norms?

Adam Grant:
That might sound a little… well, intense. But it’s the point of a strong culture– people enforce it even when the boss isn’t watching. At Simpson, the crystallization and intensity around the principles is a big reason why people regularly stay for the long haul–sometimes decades!

Annie Kao:
I just celebrated my 15 year anniversary with Simpson.

Adam Grant:
Is that a thing, an anniversary with a company.

Annie Kao:
Yes. And so we have this really cool, online network where we can actually go and celebrate our coworkers' anniversaries. You can post messages and memories I just happened to be the lucky recipient of like, I think 50 messages from people that I've worked with congratulating me which was pretty emotional and overwhelming.

Adam Grant:
The anniversaries are a result of the strong culture. The messages also help to maintain that culture– they reinforce the principle that everybody matters.

Annie Kao:
And I think part of it too, is everyone wants to be a part of this winning team, if you will. that the work that you do matters and people who enjoy their work and bring that passion with them to their work, just, they give so much more of themselves. I feel like it's translated itself, you know, financially for us. We passed the $1 billion mark. I saw that there were some, um, analysts who were predicting that we would be, you know, maybe 2 billion by the end of this year. And it's like, oh, okay. Like we really see that the hard work and the culture that we build actually translates into financial success, which is a kind of Self fulfilling prophecy.

Adam Grant:
Yeah, well, it's, it's interesting what you just described dovetails very nicely with what we see in the research on strong cultures, which is one talented people are more attracted to them because there's a clear signal. This is who we are. This is what we stand for. And that differentiates you in the marketplace to heighten motivation over and over again, right? Like I'm, I'm not just doing a job, I'm advancing a mission. Um, and three, those two things obviously feed into retention nicely. And they do that in part, through a sense of belonging, right? Like when the, when the culture is strong, like, well, everybody shares the same values and also is passionate about the same values as me. And I can't imagine working anywhere else because how am I going to find that again?

Annie Kao:
YES, YES.

Adam Grant:
So how do you create that kind of commitment, and build a strong organizational culture? In her research, Jenny compared the effects of selection versus socialization: how much of culture is who you let on the bus versus how you drive it?

Jenny Chatman:
It turns out that people are, within some parameters, pretty flexible in terms of how much they can, grow to adapt and fit with, or even appreciate the culture that they're a part of.

Adam Grant:
Wow. I think you just said that socialization eats selection for breakfast.

Jenny Chatman:
That's right. That's right. Which is interesting because I think if you asked most leaders, they would say it's a. About who you hire. And it turns out that that people are actually more adaptable than we give them credit for. Jenny finds that when it comes to building a strong culture, socialization beats selection. The values and norms you set are more than twice as influential as who you hire. So if you want to strengthen your culture, the first step is to bring it to life for people– especially new hires. Culture isn’t just communicated through the stories we tell. It’s created through the stories we tell. You want to find and share stories about a time when the culture became real.

Jenny Chatman:
Stories are vital. I like to advise leaders to see themselves as curators of key stories within an organization, You need to tell the story, but also give the moral of the story, and so one very well-known example is Southwest airlines, they were running out of money early in their operations. They were using four jets at the time and they couldn't make payroll. So they had to sell one of the jets to pay employees that month. And they went to employees and said, we're going to sell one of our jets, but we want to run the same routes with three jets instead of four. How can we do that? And employees came back with the idea of turning the planes more quickly than they were before. So Southwest now continues to be known for its turn time. The amount of time it takes to come back in the gate, unload passengers and bags, you know, clean the plane, reload, passengers and bags, and take off and that's part of Southwest's sort of deep strategy. So that story got told, not just for the substance, that turn time is important, but for the relationship between leaders and employees and who actually came up with the idea, everyone at Southwest knows that story. And it absolutely maps on to the culture that emphasizes both urgency and speed, but also a deep investment and mutual respect between employees and leaders in the organization.

Adam Grant:
Research reveals that the most powerful stories are about people living your values. Once you’ve identified your best culture stories, the second step is to reward and promote the protagonists in them. Celebrate people who exemplify your values.

Jenny Chatman:
You would definitely want to focus on the formal and informal reward systems. formally if you have control over compensation and you can reward that financially, that gets people's attention very quickly, but then there are a whole host of informal rewards whether that's, um, gift certificates for lunch or, um, a cake celebration for someone who had a small win that's consistent with the desired new culture, these are ways of really capturing people's attention.

Adam Grant:
Wait a minute. If I heard you correctly, you're saying I shouldn't just pay people for their performance. I should pay them for their contributions to the culture.

Jenny Chatman:
Well, yeah, because in my way of thinking about culture, the culture is your path to strategy execution. Then culture is almost a proxy for top performance.

Adam Grant:
Wow, this is, it's such a big step for so many organizations that are used to, I would say most of the organizations I've worked with overtime or, or they've gotten good at measuring individual results and they know how to figure out if you are a superstar they have no idea what your impact on the culture is.

Jenny Chatman:
That’s right. And then the final lever of course, is the leader's own behavior, right? She needs to absolutely emulate the culture that she's trying to cultivate. And, and there's no substitute for that because people are looking at leaders for an understanding of what's important. This is the third step: leaders have to show up and model the values every day. That’s a principle Annie learned from Barc Simpson, the company’s founder, and the CEOs who followed him.

Annie Kao:
I just do office hours. We've been trying to build that in and just say like, our schedules are so busy. Everyone never has time. So I'm going to actually make that time. I'm going to be available for two hours on Monday morning right after we've done our company earnings call. So if you have questions about why we decided to do this, why we didn't move that project forward, you know, what the heck was Karen talking about with the financials?
I have made the time for that.

Adam Grant:
So Annie, I haven't asked you yet about the dark side of strong cultures, but I want to because we, we see empirically that, uh, despite all the upsides, um, the challenges that strong cultures run into have to do with groupthink and homogeneity and becoming sort of stuck in the way we've always done things as opposed to adapting and evolving. Have you seen that? How have you navigated it?

Annie Kao:
Yeah, we it's so funny. You're asking me this question. Cause we were just talking about this as an engineering team is how do we make sure we have, you know, a diverse set of perspectives and opinions so that we don't fall into group think and that like, well, this is how we've always done it. Let's just not assume that we're not doing, you know, group think like, how are we. Making sure to put together diverse teams, right? Like what questions are we asking as we start a project or as we put people on projects to make sure that it has the right, the right mix of people. And I think we ask ourselves that questions too, when we hire, like who can, who is the right new person on the team to challenge what we're doing and, and how do we celebrate being challenged, what we're doing so that we are kind of, we're looking for it. And that it's not something that catches us by surprise.

Adam Grant:
This is the paradox of strong cultures. If you want them to stay strong, flexibility needs to be one of your core values. Cultures are like buildings. Without proper maintenance, they fall apart. A culture needs regular service– and sometimes a full-scale renovation. So how do you know what kind of maintenance your culture needs? You do a culture audit.

Jenny Chatman:
A culture audit, is actually pretty straightforward. You can start by saying, here are our current norms. And then you could say, if we were fully executing on our strategy, what would our norms be? And then you can identify the gaps and figure out a bunch of behaviors that can fix that using these levers, who would we hire? How would we socialize, orient and train people? What stories would we tell? Who would we promote? How would we reward people? You know, what would leaders be doing? Um, and so at that, at that point, you could get to real behavioral change. That could be of value.

Adam Grant:
Yeah. And one of the things I love about the idea of a culture audit is I can go and get responsibility for that, even if I'm not in charge. Right. And in some ways I'm, I'm taking a task that nobody has time for, or it might not already be in anybody's job description. and I'm saying, Hey, like I know you would love to find out like leaders, you can't be everywhere. you can't see everything. Can I help you figure out what's working in the culture and what needs to be improved? And if I can, if I can get that project, then I have a chance to shape the discovery of data that could convince leaders that we need to make some adjustments.

Jenny Chatman:
Definitely. And, then the next piece of that would be that you make the culture changes part of the work that people are doing anyway. At Simpson, they have their version of a culture audit.

Annie Kao:
It's basically a culture and leadership survey. And so the first time we did this, There was feedback that people felt that they couldn't really say something if they saw something that was against our values or against our policies. And so, as a result, we launched a program specifically to address that called, Speak up, Listen up. we opened an anonymous phone tip line. We had an anonymous form. You could fill out online, all managers took training, we put our money where our mouth is, right.

Adam Grant:
Wow. This sounds like an example of protecting the culture.

Annie Kao:
Yeah. I would say everyone in our company is responsible for protecting the culture. And what it means for me is just, is going back and making sure that we are a values driven organization. And so I'm going to do whatever I can as a leader in our organization to make sure that that is pervasive through every single role, every single level, because that's not something that we are willing to go halfway on. And if we do, then that's not a company that I want to work for.

Adam Grant:
The ultimate test of a strong culture is: can it adapt? Building a great workplace isn’t just about expecting people to adapt to the culture– it’s also about adapting the culture to the people… and the world. As the world evolves, your culture needs to evolve with it.

WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Transmitter Media. Our team includes Colin Helms, Gretta Cohn, Dan O’Donnell, JoAnn DeLuna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng and Anna Phelan. This episode was produced by Constanza Gallardo. Our show is mixed by Ben Chesneau. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown. Ad stories produced by Pineapple Street Studios.

Special thanks to our sponsors: LinkedIn, Morgan Stanley, ServiceNow, and UKG.

For their studies of organizational culture, gratitude to the following researchers and their colleagues: Charles O’Reilly, Chad Hartnell, Shalom Schwartz, Joanne Martin, Sean Martin, Alan Benson, Donald Sull, Constantinos Coutifaris, and my beloved late colleague Sigal Barsade.

EASTER EGG

Maria:
The people that were there when I was there, are still there. And this was like two years ago. I sat there with them, trying to figure out how we could start their own businesses, because I was like, you need to get out of here.

Adam Grant:
For toxic cultures, there should be some kind of extraction team

Maria:
There should be!

Adam Grant:
Like a SWAT team that's going to go in and rescue.

Maria:
That's a good business idea. Maybe I recruiter a company that could specialize in saving teams that are stuck in a shitty culture.

Adam Grant:
I think that is a business waiting to be launched.